Apologies for the previous post that might have shown up in your inboxes.. I pressed the wrong button before I was done. This post is to engage with some of Denise’s comments.
Removing trees because of beetle kill also removes the trees that are the most resistant and therefore should not be removed. There is also evidence that logging has actually spread beetles from one area to another. Regardless, beetles are nature’s way of natural thinning of the forest. It’s a natural process. Thinning dries out the forest and does not help with drought. Lush forests retain water. Nothing will stop a wildfire under the right climate conditions and we are in the midst of a warming climate. Forests survived for millinea without “management” and looked a lot better than they do today.
The Black Hills was actually fairly successful at thinning and reducing beetle kill, and this paper suggests that it was successful in mitigating tree mortality due to MPB.
Many of us remember these kinds of conditions and photos from the early teens:
Dave Mertz can tell us whether these results held up over time.
But thinning doesn’t work for all tree/beetle combos and under all conditions. For example, back in the 80’s we thinned around our selected (for cones) trees in a massive MPB outbreak thinking that the vigor would protect them (they could pitch out the bugs). As it turned out, though, at that point in the outbreak the beetles were not to be fazed. That’s why I am hesitant to generalize about bark beetle management. On the other hand, if we remove the Timber Wars context (say for Colorado private landowners, who have a timber industry deficit) we can see on the Colorado State Forest Service website:
Large outbreaks of mountain pine beetles are difficult to control. One of the best ways to mitigate the effects of beetle outbreaks is to manage for overall forest health and resiliency. Thinning overly dense stands of trees to reduce competition and promote tree age and species diversity is the most successful forest management strategy to increase tree vigor.
Maybe there’s a difference between “thinning” and “logging”? It seems to me more likely that a FS timber contract would include provisions about timing to not move bugs around, rather than Amber the Homeowner who is taking it to the county slash pile. Maybe those terms (thinning vs. logging) are not all that helpful and we could talk about “thinning and burning piles” “thinning and chipping onsite” “thinning and transport to different places, including sawmills?” Then there’s the scientific consensus in the 10 Common Questions paper we’ve discussed partially here at TSW and is summarized in this fact sheet by Pritchard. I’m always up for discussing these, and I think the FS does fairly well in responding to these kinds of statements in their “response to comments” section of CE, EA and EIS documentation.
When I worked in R-2, we’d sometimes get appeals where the appellants hadn’t changed the project name since the last one. I’m thinking that AI might be very helpful in developing generic responses to generic literature cites. It could rummage through existing project docs and do quite well (and of course be edited by FS folks).
“Thinning dries out a forest and does not help with drought”. Studies and real-world experience show otherwise. Again, it’s all about the site, the species and the conditions. I don’t really see the need to generalize to the globe (???), as these 2025 authors did- since local silviculturists know the specifics. Like what species on what soil types are likely to blow over post-thinning.
Generating broad-scale conclusions to inform forest management decisions in the face of global change is highly challenging. Although our analyses showed that negative responses may occur, in general, thinning can be expected to increase the resilience and resistance of forests to multiple stressors across North America and Europe.
And others (OK a science writer at CU Boulder) says that current MPB levels are a symptom of climate change
As the climate continues to warm, these sorts of ecological issues are going to happen more often. So we need to make sure that instead of only treating the symptoms of climate change, we are reducing the amount of carbon that is going into the atmosphere.
So according to some, beetle outbreaks have ceased to be “natural”. It seems to me people should pick a lane, natural or not? Of course, we’ve done many unnatural things like logged for railroads, the mining industry, and when trees grow back from that, suppressed fires so trees get old and maybe overstocked based on soil and climate conditions. Wouldn’t it be hard to tease apart the “natural” from the “unnatural”?
Denise also said:
Nothing will stop a wildfire under the right climate conditions
I’d say that perhaps “weather” conditions is more accurate. Like high winds. In my part of the country we get frequent wind-driven wildfires in the winter, and the strategy is rapid initial attack. So, yes, most of the time fire suppression works, and developing PODs and fuelbreaks can help with fire suppression in addition to reducing fuels in other areas and helping trees be more resilient.
The FS has butchered our National Forests and you don’t have to be any kind of natural resource expert to see it.
Last fall, my family and I visited California on a road trip. I lived there in the 80’s and worked for the Eldorado. What I noticed (coming west on US50 was major removal of trees due to… wildfire. Then drove up to the coast via 299 again massive wildfire area. Then to the redwoods, which I had forgotten (from my forestry education at Cal) are fire-adapted.
Save the Redwoods League views wildfire as a top priority in our larger effort to protect and restore California’s redwood forests. We’re moving quickly to ensure that the properties we manage are prepared for a future with more extreme wildfire, and we’re encouraging state and federal land managers to ramp up efforts to make their coast redwood and giant sequoia landscapes more fire resilient
Up through Grants Pass, to Shasta and then to Lassen and to Reno, more landscapes (not devastated but definitely de-treed) by wildfire. So no, the FS has not “butchered” the NFs. Maybe climate change causes “more extreme” fires and fuel loadings and dead trees have nothing to do with it.
It seems to me that most of us agree on what makes forests resilient. Most of us agree on the need to protect communities, because fires running even through hardened and evacuated communities is not good. Not to speak of the fact that evacuation is difficult and stressful. Some of us would like more timber or other industry using our thinned material. For example, Douglas County just opened a county-operated biochar facility.
Or the new Tahoe Forest Products sawmill in Carson City:
Reducing the risk of wildfire devastation in the Sierra Nevada is a daunting and multi-faceted task. Much of the effort is focused on reducing fuel load in the forest so that fires that do flare up don’t turn into catastrophes like the Caldor Fire of 2021.
One sticking point in this effort for the Tahoe region has been the lack of a nearby sawmill. The further away a sawmill is from the logs, the more expensive they are to transport, which can make necessary tree thinning operations prohibitively expensive.
If most of us agree on the need for fuel treatments or some kind of management for wildfire and/or climate resilience, with zones of agreement and forest collaboratives, perhaps in places like the Sierra Nevada or Colorado the Timber Wars can be declared over. And as Jack Ward Thomas said in 2001:
One of my favorite JWT observations came in 2001, five years after he’d left his Forest Service post. He was urging conservation peace and progress after environmental groups had turned the tide on overcutting on the national forests.
“Fierce in battle, many of the eco-warriors have been unable to come to grips with the consequences of victory and are now reduced to wandering about the old battlefields ‘bayoneting the wounded.’ Their counterparts from the resource extraction community, likewise, cannot come to terms with defeat and hold ‘ghost dances’ to bring back the good old days when they were the undisputed Kings of the West.”






