I thought that this was a great interview by The Hotshot Wakeup with Frank Carroll, also the discussion following, which features some TSW regulars.
FWIW, I don’t agree with Frank about: Loper-Bright, and the idea that we can return to the old days of forest management, though I’d like to see more utilization of material from fuel treatments than burning in piles with the attendant carbon and particulates.
I thought his impassioned defense of forest planning for this was worth listening to, so I thought we might have a good discussion here. There was some new news for me, as I didn’t know that more retardant is (sometimes) used when “large scale agency ignitions” are a tool. If I understood that correctly.
I do think that some folks’ views in this discussion have been mischaracterized. Saying “it’s going to burn one way or another” is probably true, but hopefully agencies interacting with the public can decide that some ways are better than others. Or “these are old folks wanting to return to the old ways” or “a national 10AM policy is bad”; I see the views of these folks as much more nuanced than some give them credit for.
Anyway, here is a link, it should be open to all, so let me know if it doesn’t work for you. I subscribe to the Hotshot Wakeup, so I can’t tell.
This is an excellent interview. Frank have been around in the USFS for decades and has much knowledge of the agency, of forest management and of firefighting.
All-on-all he presents a very reasonable and balanced perspective — main point being that if the USFS is going to spontaneously light fires on landscapes during fire “management” operations, the agency at least needs to be operating under some set of rules that the public was involved in the creation of. This requires a genuine NEPA process, not the phony kind. And yet no kind of such process is currently in the works, or really even being contemplated. The USFS is acting in a rogue manner by implementing large-scale firing operations under the guise of wildfire management, that are essentially NEPA-less prescribed burns.
I very much disagree with Frank on his strong support of logging and grazing in national forests. Too much damage has been caused. I could possibly support limited logging in specific situations, carried out with a real focus on forest conservation, but on the whole logging operations leave a huge eco-mess. And I don’t believe our national forests need to be used as cow pastures either. Grazing causes too much damage to forest soils and understories.
I was quite touched by Frank’s description of the spiritual aspects of properly maintaining and protecting our forests. As our culture spins out of balance, the beauty, balance and solace of forests is increasingly needed. Forests have always been critical spiritually for any cultures that were fortunate to have forests nearby. The destructive ways logging is generally carried out desecrates the spiritual importance and meaning of forests. Forests demonstrate a deep balancing of many aspects that the human mind cannot understand or replicate, but needs to emulate. When humans go in and hugely damage and distrupt forest ecosystems, that balance is ripped away. The forest will proceed to attempt to regain that balance, but especially in the warming climate, it is difficult and may not happen in the way we hope. Instead type-conversions can take place, and rich and abundant forests are on the decline.
The vast majority of wildfires are human-caused. We should focus on the main cause of wildfires first and foremost — human behaviors in and near forests. Lightening strike fires are often the most beneficial fires and at least in the SFNF, have not been overly large or hot. The human-ignited fires have been the large and very hot fires.
Sarah, to follow up on your human-ignited concerns. The Hotshot Wakeup had a report on Calif fires..
https://open.substack.com/pub/thehotshotwakeup/p/record-acres-burned-by-arson-in-california/ Pretty interesting discussion of the arsonists.. his last few paragraphs were:
“However, when the number of arson acres and arrests starts to increase year over year, I think the subject needs attention. Especially when firefighters are injured on these fires and homes are being lost.
The cost alone should raise people’s eyebrows. And the downstream effects are enormous. The Governor declared a state of emergency, insurance and housing costs increased, and federal funds are being used to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to help with fire recovery from these incidents.
Gianni Muschetto, Cal Fire’s chief of law enforcement, was asked why these suspects were lighting these fires; he had a few reasons. Some were trying to cover up other crimes, some were attempting insurance fraud, and the fires got out of control, but most were started by individuals who were “driven by some excitement they get out of it.”
That’s very concerning.
As of today, total acres burned in California are down against the 5-year average, but interestingly, the total number of fires that started is significantly higher than the 5-year average. There have been 7,636 fires so far this year compared to 7,201 for the 5-year average, with a month and a half to go.
But it’s hard to ignore that the largest arson fire in California’s history occurred this year, which ended up being the 4th largest wildfire ever in California.
When your arson fires are catching up with your lightning fires… you have a problem. “