I thought that this was a great interview by The Hotshot Wakeup with Frank Carroll, also the discussion following, which features some TSW regulars.
FWIW, I don’t agree with Frank about: Loper-Bright, and the idea that we can return to the old days of forest management, though I’d like to see more utilization of material from fuel treatments than burning in piles with the attendant carbon and particulates.
I thought his impassioned defense of forest planning for this was worth listening to, so I thought we might have a good discussion here. There was some new news for me, as I didn’t know that more retardant is (sometimes) used when “large scale agency ignitions” are a tool. If I understood that correctly.
I do think that some folks’ views in this discussion have been mischaracterized. Saying “it’s going to burn one way or another” is probably true, but hopefully agencies interacting with the public can decide that some ways are better than others. Or “these are old folks wanting to return to the old ways” or “a national 10AM policy is bad”; I see the views of these folks as much more nuanced than some give them credit for.
Anyway, here is a link, it should be open to all, so let me know if it doesn’t work for you. I subscribe to the Hotshot Wakeup, so I can’t tell.
This is an excellent interview. Frank have been around in the USFS for decades and has much knowledge of the agency, of forest management and of firefighting.
All-on-all he presents a very reasonable and balanced perspective — main point being that if the USFS is going to spontaneously light fires on landscapes during fire “management” operations, the agency at least needs to be operating under some set of rules that the public was involved in the creation of. This requires a genuine NEPA process, not the phony kind. And yet no kind of such process is currently in the works, or really even being contemplated. The USFS is acting in a rogue manner by implementing large-scale firing operations under the guise of wildfire management, that are essentially NEPA-less prescribed burns.
I very much disagree with Frank on his strong support of logging and grazing in national forests. Too much damage has been caused. I could possibly support limited logging in specific situations, carried out with a real focus on forest conservation, but on the whole logging operations leave a huge eco-mess. And I don’t believe our national forests need to be used as cow pastures either. Grazing causes too much damage to forest soils and understories.
I was quite touched by Frank’s description of the spiritual aspects of properly maintaining and protecting our forests. As our culture spins out of balance, the beauty, balance and solace of forests is increasingly needed. Forests have always been critical spiritually for any cultures that were fortunate to have forests nearby. The destructive ways logging is generally carried out desecrates the spiritual importance and meaning of forests. Forests demonstrate a deep balancing of many aspects that the human mind cannot understand or replicate, but needs to emulate. When humans go in and hugely damage and distrupt forest ecosystems, that balance is ripped away. The forest will proceed to attempt to regain that balance, but especially in the warming climate, it is difficult and may not happen in the way we hope. Instead type-conversions can take place, and rich and abundant forests are on the decline.
The vast majority of wildfires are human-caused. We should focus on the main cause of wildfires first and foremost — human behaviors in and near forests. Lightening strike fires are often the most beneficial fires and at least in the SFNF, have not been overly large or hot. The human-ignited fires have been the large and very hot fires.
Sarah, to follow up on your human-ignited concerns. The Hotshot Wakeup had a report on Calif fires..
https://open.substack.com/pub/thehotshotwakeup/p/record-acres-burned-by-arson-in-california/ Pretty interesting discussion of the arsonists.. his last few paragraphs were:
“However, when the number of arson acres and arrests starts to increase year over year, I think the subject needs attention. Especially when firefighters are injured on these fires and homes are being lost.
The cost alone should raise people’s eyebrows. And the downstream effects are enormous. The Governor declared a state of emergency, insurance and housing costs increased, and federal funds are being used to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to help with fire recovery from these incidents.
Gianni Muschetto, Cal Fire’s chief of law enforcement, was asked why these suspects were lighting these fires; he had a few reasons. Some were trying to cover up other crimes, some were attempting insurance fraud, and the fires got out of control, but most were started by individuals who were “driven by some excitement they get out of it.”
That’s very concerning.
As of today, total acres burned in California are down against the 5-year average, but interestingly, the total number of fires that started is significantly higher than the 5-year average. There have been 7,636 fires so far this year compared to 7,201 for the 5-year average, with a month and a half to go.
But it’s hard to ignore that the largest arson fire in California’s history occurred this year, which ended up being the 4th largest wildfire ever in California.
When your arson fires are catching up with your lightning fires… you have a problem. “
Yes, case in point the fires in Ruidoso, NM last spring. Law enforcement officers and investigators identified a number of the fires as human-caused and believed to be arson, sparked from May 3 to June 18 in a 25 square-mile area. Two people died in the fires. About 500 homes burned and 1,400 structures.
The forest in that area was logged and otherwise treated, so the issue was not a lack of forest fuel treatments. It’s hard to know how to deal with arsonists other increased law enforcement in our forests, and very long jail terms.
Hi Sarah: I would be interested in your “otherwise treated” statement. From 1966 until 1987 my crews did site prep and reforestation on more than 80,000 acres of mostly industrial forestland in the Pacific Northwest. During that time there wasn’t a single fire greater than 10,000 acres in western Oregon, and so far as I know, zero acres that we treated during those years have subsequently burned in a wildfire — although several thousands of these acres have been logged again. Lots of jobs, great public access, abundant and diverse habitat and wildlife, clean air and water, and greatly reduced wildfire risk.
We used cats with brush blades to “scarify” flat and sloping areas into burn piles, and chainsaws and herbicides to prepare sites for broadcast burning, followed by highly successful tree planting projects. Some of what the USFS has been calling “treated” in recent years borders on dishonesty. For example, I’ve seen thousands of standing and highly flammable snags remaining from a “treated” let-it-burn failure. Are these types of results being counted as treated in this instance? Snags and contiguous ground fuels remaining after a treatment process are certain signs of failure and increased — not decreased — wildfire risk.
I only know that the area was logged and received other fuels treatments. I don’t know the specifics of the treatments down in that area.
How to deal with arsonists … it might be interesting to explore how the duty to warn/protect is being applied to the counseling profession with regard to pyromania in areas of high fire risk.
“Given fire setting’s propensity for property damage and risk for loss of life, it should be noted that a history of fire setting in a patient may give rise to a Tarasoff duty to warn and/or protect on the part of psychiatry residents.”
https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp-rj.2016.110707#:~:text=cause%20serious%20damage.-,Tarasoff%3A%20Duty%20to%20Warn%20and%20Protect,the%20part%20of%20psychiatry%20residents.
(The Tarasoff case, Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, is a landmark California court case from 1976 that established a duty for mental health professionals to warn potential victims of their patients.)
I think the “acreage” figures continue to be misleading. There is a huge difference between grassland and shrubland wildfires — which may rejuvenate the vegetation in a positive way — and forest fires. Fatalities, structures burned, and air quality are other important measures that are rarely used when comparing wildfires and fire years.
I would be very interested in how many acres were purposefully burned with “backfires” purposefully set by people, as opposed to arson acres. This seems to be a significant and growing problem during the past 20 years, but little attention being paid to this costly practice.
New Mexico has been home to much larger aspen communities in the fairly recent past. Because it reproduces clonally underground from adult trees aspen (Populus tremuloides) is one of the first plants to reestablish after fire.
The timber industry doesn’t like prescribed fire because burns release aspen and kill pine species. Ponderosa pine sucks billions of gallons from aquifer recharges, needles absorb heat and accelerate snow melt while aspen leaves reflect sunlight in the summer months and hold snowpacks in winter. Insects like the mountain pine beetle and spruce bud worm can help promote drought- and fire-tolerant species like aspen.
Larry, you might be happy to know that a forest I recently visited was happily removing pines from aspen stands for wildlife purposes. I worked on the same forest 45 years ago and that was a part of the program. I would go so far to say that most folks want to keep aspen going for species diversity, and many places with pine and aspen do not have a viable timber industry…
Northern New Mexico doesn’t really have a viable timber industry and to this interested party the Calf Canyon/ Hermits Peak Fire was a blessing in disguise for hardwood release despite the lawsuits and misery in its aftermath.
What hardwoods? Other than aspen..
Probably a different topic but Weyerhaeuser just announced a $500 million new plant making Glu-Lam here in Arkansas! Half a billion Samolians!!!
Gambel oak is another hardwood that is native to the Sangre de Cristo Mountains and essential to wildlife. Cottonwood grows in the lower riparian zones of the range, too.
We have those too in Colorado, but they don’t seem at risk of losing ground to ponderosas. Here, they are generally on slightly drier sites. And pines don’t grow in cottonwood country- too wet.
The aspen bowl above Santa Fe is white while everything that is covered in pine and spruce is dark. Take fire off the the Forest or listen to guys like Frank Carroll saying public land management is broken.
I’m missing context there Larry, are you agreeing with Frank? I certainly do, and I think that’s what you are saying too? You have a strong handle on what the FS needs to be doing, and they are not.
I’ve heard ecologists talk of the major fires prior to European, and most Spanish settlement where the fires burned overwinter, resulting in the large Aspen stands of northern NM and Colorado. Can you imagine winters with no snow, and fires of 2-5 million acres, and larger?…..
The Black Hills hasn’t been a natural forest since probably 1863 when a nearly Hills-wide fire likely set by Lakota people hoping to clear pine opened grazing for distinct historic ungulates. The collapse of the Black Hills hydrologic region was forecast in 2002 even as the mountain pine beetle fights to save Paha Sapa water supplies. Lodgepole pine and Douglas fir have been extirpated from the Black Hills for nearly a century, the oldest aspen was logged out during European settlement; yet, tiny stands of old-growth ponderosa pine can still be found in the Hills.
“distinct historic ungulates” does that mean elk, deer and pronghorn?
Not sure about the Dfir and LPP found this table:
from GLO data in this paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365140907_Historical_forests_of_the_Black_Hills_South_Dakota_USA_determined_using_General_Land_Office_surveys
but the surveyors may not have differentiated LPP and PP.
Looks like the thread got too long. Bison (NDNs say buffalo) were in the Black Hills before any humans got there and browse aspen shoots like any ungulate would so clearing the ponderosa pine, that didn’t even get to the Hills until about 4000 years ago, was probably done by the ancestors of the Arikara and Apsáalooke who were there long before the Lakota were.
“I thought his impassioned defense of forest planning for this was worth listening to, so I thought we might have a good discussion here.” That sounds interesting, but not enough for me to spend an hour I’m afraid. (Maybe you could summarize?) I would say that Loper-Bright seems to stand for the opposite of agencies doing what they want.
OK, maybe someone can listen and make note of the spot where Frank starts talking about forest planning. Or maybe there’s an audio to transcription out there somewhere..?
A few years ago YouTube added a significant improvement to their video indexing options. Frank’s interview would be an excellent opportunity to use this product. Oregon State University (OSU) and Oregon State have released videos of public meetings and Zoom recordings for years w/o indexing, making them time-consuming and frustrating to use, and likely lowering their limited viewing in the process. OSU wouldn’t allow me to download the 60-minute Norm n’ Jerry video promotion of their recent book so I could index it online, so second-best was posting it here with a written index, which still works but is a lot clunkier: https://forestpolicypub.com/2023/06/04/norm-johnson-jerry-franklin-the-history-of-wild-science/
Well, I just listened to Franks interview and it was spot on! There are a number of things in the micro environment that I’d argue with; the Black Hills is/has been over harvested because of, or in spite of the MPB, and greedy industry. The Mogollon Rim is trying to address the dog hair thickets and feature back to old growth PP (Apache-Sitgreaves) and the Colorado MPB epidemic was more tian a management issue.
But, but, he is correct in his leadership “asleep at the wheel” assessment! However, who ya gonna put in place that hasn’t been tainted by decades of poor leaders? I’m sure there are folks out there but will they step up?
Great presentation of facts and opinions, I sure hope some new department head will listen….
Oh yeah, we can manage our way out of this mess without paying $3,900/ acre to screw around in timber stands!
Larry Kurtz: Interesting that the NDNs (National Desexing Network) calls buffs buffaloes. The term buffalo is preferred by we who honor tradition, culture, American Indian name preference, history, and who don’t work for the Park Service. Some forgotten Parkey decided to spend her life ragging on about bison and literally nobody cared except Harris voters. Just saying. Not judging. Judging would be wrong. I’m offering data so we can all make the wise choice to call buffalo Buffalo and relegate bison to the footnotes of history and cultural oddities.