Interview with John McCarthy

Check this out, lots of interesting stuff here about collaboration…thanks to the reader who contributed these!mcCarthy1

Here’s the link and below is an excerpt.

Give us a nuts and bolts description of how the Clearwater Basin Collaborative project got started and how it works, because this does seem to be a pretty solid group of folks.
There have to be local folks — some configuration of different interests meet and get a sense that they could sit down and work toward agreements. Nobody knows whether you’re going to get there or not. So a guy named Dale Harris from Montana with just a high, high interest in the Great Burn area, and Alex Irby from Orofino, with both motorized interests and a timber guy and also just a sporting guy who was a Fish and Game commissioner — these two guys said the time was right.

We said no, slow down. But they went ahead and did it anyway, and started putting together more people and quick enough, once they started to get a configuration, the key was Senator Crapo. Senator Crapo was wrapping up the Owyhee Initiative, had built a lot of trust throughout all different kinds of communities, had built up recognition in Congress as somebody who pulled off a very contentious, very complicated, and ultimately a great piece of legislation.

So a set of folks went to the Forest Service. They said yes, and then just invited in the congressional staff. Senator Crapo actually did send out an invitation letter. The thing about the Clearwater group is they’re trying to deal with at least four big issues: timber supply, recreation, generalized forest economics, and then wilderness. Some pretty big stuff all at once.

Note: Senator Crapo is an R.. we could hypothesize that once local people get collaboration going, it would be hard for any politician to stand in the way or partisanize. We might be putting them in teh situation where they have a chance to lead across the aisle, with no downside at home.

John McCarthy Retires from The Wilderness Society

Here is the link and below is an excerpt.

To many of his former enemies, John McCarthy is now the face of collaboration. He and ICL joined Owyhee County, ranchers, local officials and others in the initiative to protect wilderness and ranchers.

He and other environmentalists were told by the Owyhee Cattleman’s Association there would be no wilderness without the support of every single rancher affected. McCarthy was the primary person who went to the ranches, met with the families and mapped out the places that eventually would make the 500,000-acre wilderness areas protected by Congress in 2009.

Then McCarthy went to work for the Wilderness Society, going back to the Forest Service officials who he had so often clashed during the forest wars and joined their efforts to restore fire to the ecosystems of Southwest Idaho. To do this thinning and even logging was needed, especially around communities to give them the comfort necessary to allow burning in the backcountry.

Through these efforts and his work on Resource Advisory Councils established by legislation sponsored by another old foe, Sen. Larry Craig, McCarthy began building relationships with the timber communities. He and his new partners former loggers and Boise Cascade foresters, formed collaborative groups that are successfully bringing federal funding back to the forests for logging and other restoration work.

He and the Wilderness Society actually supported funding for a new timber mill in Emmett.

Deadwood, along nearly 9 million acres of roadless lands in Idaho is now protected as a part of the Idaho Roadless Plan that ironically had the support of the timber industry and his old group the ICL but not he and the Wilderness Society. Fire burned through parts of the area in 2007 but Forest Service foresters said most of the big trees survived and the fires did minimal damage.

A couple of thoughts.. this is the first time I have heard that WUI fuel treatments have the benefit of giving folks the comfort necessary to allow burning in the backcountry. It makes some sense, but I just don’t recollect hearing it before. And I still wonder why TWS decided to litigate Idaho Roadless (not just “not support” it)..maybe someday we will find out how and why that decision was made.

Normative Science Essay by Bob Lackey in Terra

Robert T. Lackey retired in 2008 from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Corvallis national research laboratory where he worked for 27 years as a senior scientist and deputy director. (Photo: Jeff Basinger)
Robert T. Lackey retired in 2008 from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Corvallis national research laboratory where he worked for 27 years as a senior scientist and deputy director. (Photo: Jeff Basinger)
Here is the link.. Below is an excerpt

Let me illustrate with a current policy issue: “Should certain dams be removed to restore salmon runs?” Scientists can assess with some degree of confidence the likely effects of removing or maintaining a particular dam. Scientific information alone, however, is an insufficient justification for deciding to keep or remove a dam. There are biological consequences of dam removal (and maintenance), and those consequences may be substantial from a salmon perspective, but ecological consequences are but one of many elements that the public and decision-makers must weigh when making a policy choice.

Policymakers, not scientists, decide whether preserving salmon runs should trump flood protection, irrigated agriculture or electricity generation. As the public and decision-makers balance policy alternatives, what they need from scientists are facts and probabilities. What they do not need from scientists are their or their employer’s values and policy preferences masked within scientific information disguised as being policy neutral.

There are other common examples. In working with scientists, I often encounter value-laden terms like “degradation,” “improvement,” “good,” “poor,” “impact,” or “alien invasive.” Scientists should avoid these types of normative words in conveying scientific information. Such words imply a preferred ecological state, a desired condition, an accepted benchmark or a favored class of policy options. This is not science; it is a form of policy advocacy — subtle, sometimes unintentional, but it is patently stealth policy advocacy.

Consider the widespread use of concepts such as “ecosystem health.” It is normative science! “Ecosystem health” is a value-driven policy construct, but it is often passed off as science to unsuspecting policy-makers and the public. Think what the average person actually hears when scientific data or assessments are packaged or presented under the rubric of “ecosystem health.” Healthy is good. Any other state of the ecosystem must be unhealthy, hence, undesirable.

Scientific information must remain a cornerstone of public policy decisions, but I offer cautionary guidance to scientists: Get involved in policy deliberations, but play the appropriate role. Provide facts, probabilities and analysis, but avoid normative science. Scientists have much to offer the public and decision-makers but also have much to lose when they practice stealth policy advocacy.

I read all the comments carefully and found many worth quoting also, so here goes..

This from Bill West:

Lawyers refer to “combat science” and “dueling experts.” The most obvious context is litigation, but I also routinely see scientists employed or funded by public research or resource management institutions who are clearly working to advance an agenda. Sometimes it’s their institution’s or sponsor’s agenda, but all too often it’s a personal or ideological one that may even run counter to the institution’s publicly-stated policies and goals.

In my experience, including my time as a biologist working for governmental and university research organizations, “normative science” as the author describes it is the rule rather than the exception. I’m sorry, but having a point of view is an unavoidable attribute of human nature. I agree that scientists should strive for pure objectivity, but it’s unrealistic to expect them to achieve it. This is especially true when scientists’ work is intended to guide and support policy or resource management decisions, whether they’re getting their paycheck directly from an agency or from a university. When advising policy makers or the public I feel that it is better for such scientists to do their best to make the kinds of objective assessments that the author calls for, but then to explicitly point out where their assessments rely on assumptions or inferences rather than data, explain what those assumptions and inferences are and how they might influence the analysis and outcomes, and acknowledge their own predispositions and explain how their assumptions and inferences might align with their predispositions. After all, the scientist’s own point of view is an important piece of metadata that needs to be present in a comprehensive analysis.

Given our restoration discussions on this blog, I thought this was interesting by Jim Anderson…

Cheers to Bob Lackey for illuminating the fallacy of normative science. It permeates the vocabulary of science and goes to the very core beliefs of ecology and conservation biology. For example, the idea of “ecosystem restoration of the San Francisco Bay Delta habitat” is a stealth normative concept. What is the target period,1948 when the rivers were filled with gold mining sediment, or a time earlier when the delta was a series of lakes? Lauren Sommer in a recent NPR article asks this question http://www.npr.org/2012/10/07/162393931/restore-california-delta-to-what-exactly .

In a recent National Research Council committee http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=13394 we debated the idea of restoration. Ecosystems cannot be restored. They are in constant evolution and the best that can be done is to anticipate the possible directions and steer the systems to one determined to be more favorable to society. In the very near future, the focus in many instances will not be on restoration but on adaptive triage. In fact, I suspect for the shores of New Jersey and Long Island that future is now.

This one by Paul Fishman

I’ve had a county commission tell me that, although my presentation was informative, well put together, and based on excellent data, they had to go with the “opinion” of the state fish agency because “they are the experts.” A lot of my career has been involved with natural resource permitting. I have developed a bad habit of reading journal articles and research reports that are cited by agency staff in their findings on a proposed project. All too often I find that the reports have been cherry picked to find information that supports the writer’s conclusion (i.e. policy decision), or that the cited source says nothing about the topic for which it has been cited. Very often this kind of normative science has a price tag; a recent client spent an extra $1M on a project because of an agency policy decision that was anything but science-based.

I have no idea how to get to complete objectivity in the use of science. I do like the suggestion by one commenter that we at least strive for transparency. For the examples I used above, at least an objective peer review of agency staff findings would go a long way.

From Ed Hanna:

Many of the norms for publishing scientific research already serve well to ensure self-regulation. As well, much can be learned from the rules imposed elsewhere; for example, rules for declaring a conflict of interest. Likewise rules for full disclosure. The problem is that these rules do not fully resolve the stealth component; largely due to the subtle and nuanced nature of stealth advocacy.
In my professional practice, I run up against this problem daily. I have developed a set of rules and procedures that I use to guide my work.
1. Use quantitative methods with full disclosure of all data, sources and uncertainties (error ranges)
2. Analyse a full range of alternatives for achieving a clearly stated desired outcome
3. Report results as medians and ranges using physical units of measure
4. Use economic methods to derive weights (i.e., preference values) for physical measures
5. Rank the alternatives based on their net contribution to the overall wellbeing of the community
6. Assess and report the distribution of costs, benefits and risks among major groups (stakeholders) within the community.

There are some critical aspects to this set of rules. First, I disagree with Lee Foote when he states that “… scientists should be encouraged to speak out and give their considered professional opinion.” At no point is this process would I step forward and give my ” considered professional opinion”. My considered professional opinion is reflected in the analytical framework and the data sources on which I have chosen to rely … no more needs to be said. I am agnostic in terms of the actual results and have no considered professional opinion to add. I may have a personal opinion on what I would like to see happen but it would be patently unprofessional to offer this in my professional role.

Step 4 is critical and is one about which many natural scientists are unfamiliar and even worse, highly suspicious. Environmental and natural resource management decisions are social policy decisions. The overriding goal is to improve the collective wellbeing of the members of society. What is and is not an improvement in our collective wellbeing is a challenging question but a whole field of science is devoted to defining, measuring and forecasting societal wellbeing (i.e., economics and sociology). Certainly natural science has little to add. Within our society, there are diverse values and preferences; measuring and aggregating these values is complicated and imprecise … as also can be argued when it comes to the natural sciences. Nonetheless, it is our responsibility as scientists trying to inform decision-makers to make the best use of the best knowledge and information available. If this rule is followed when it comes to gauging the public’s values and preferences and we abide by the rules of transparency and replicability, we have performed our duties with integrity, even if the collective public preference deviates significantly from our own personal values.

Let me conclude with mention of Step 6. There is no scientific basis reach a conclusion on the issue of fairness. I can apply rigourous scientific theory and methods to inform decision makers as to the alternative that will yield the great improvement in our collective wellbeing. But that is not the final word. The distribution of benefits, costs and risks among different sectors of society ultimately is the source of much public discourse. The basic question is “Is the distribution fair?” Are the trade-offs between economic and environmental interests fair? Have the interests of future generations been given fair consideration? These are classic normative issues on which the sciences, natural or social, have to little to offer. These are issues at the heart of philosophy and religion. These are issues that should be resolved in a free and responsible democracy through public discourse and the political process. When scientists offer their “considered professional opinions” on such matters they not only bring science into disrupt, they undermine the fundamentals on which our society is based.

Well, I’ve run out of room and there are still thoughtful, well-written comments that could be quoted. I recommend you check them out for yourself and if you would like to discuss here, feel free.

Certificate of Appreciation

The folks who post and comment here do so out of the kindness of our hearts and in relative obscurity. I received this nice certificate in the mail (from Robert Redford, no less!) and thought I would share with you all…who equally deserve it ;).

NRDC

Judge Agrees With Forest Service On Thinning On North Kaibab

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The above are photos of 1) what the stand is desired to look like, and 2) what stands look like when not enough 16 inchers have been removed. At least that is my interpretation of the photos in the EA here. If I misinterpreted, please feel free to point it out.

Here is the link and below is an excerpt:

The area in question is about 39 square miles located near Jacob Lake, or north of the 40,000 acres accidentally burned in 2006’s prescribed-burn-turned-wildfire on the North Kaibab Ranger District, called the Warm fire.

It’s a defeat for the Sierra Club and Center for Biological Diversity, which have raised objections over the age and size of trees to be thinned since 1998.

Those groups asserted that the scale of thinning the Forest Service had proposed on the Kaibab Plateau is not beneficial to the northern goshawk, a bird the forest service considers a “sensitive” species (not federally listed as threatened or endangered), and submitted data to support that view.

The Forest Service weighed that data, then set it aside in favor of what its own expert had said about how dense or sparse the forest could be in areas where the goshawk live.

The plans allow for logging of ponderosa pines 16 inches and larger in diameter (with no upper size limits), though the Forest Service says it will only account for fewer than 2 percent of the trees to be cut.

The matter is potentially significant because the conservation groups have raised objections to similar plans for a handful of other thinning projects on national forests elsewhere in northern Arizona, including closer to Flagstaff.

“It makes no sense for the Forest Service to continue to push to log these old growth and large trees, when we have so little remaining. This is not a restoration project. It is a squandering of these biologically significant large trees — critical and missing components in many of our forests,” stated Sandy Bahr, of the Sierra Club.

The district forester lauded the decision.

“Thanks to the hard work and perseverance of our employees, and support from our local communities, we can move forward to help protect the habitat and the forest from high intensity wildfire,” stated North Kaibab District Ranger Randall Walker.

Note from Sharon:
1) I am curious whether this is the same project as in this story here” Group Sues to Stop Thinning Project near the Grand Canyon.”

And only a small percentage of the forest’s old-growth trees will be removed, he added.
I anticipate that some critics of my decision may mischaracterize this project with claims that it will significantly reduce old growth habitat,” Short wrote in the assessment. “Alternative 1 would reduce old growth by up to 105 acres within the 26,916 acre Jacob-Ryan project area. This equates to approximately 0.4 percent change in old growth allocation.”

Loggers would cull old-growth trees only where it would be necessary to promote restoration goals, according to the agency.

However the same story also says…

Under the proposal, about 700 acres of mature and old-growth ponderosa pines would be harvested.

39 square miles? 700 acres? 105 acres? This seems very confusing.

I sure think it would be interesting if, for each project that goes to litigation, the unit would develop a standard video package that shows 1) what the area currently looks like, 2) explains why they are doing what they are doing, 3) show how they would do the marking, and then 4) show what nearby areas look like after that treatment. There was some of that done in this EA, but I think a video showing what trees would be removed and why would be clearer. It would be helpful for folks on this blog, and other members of the public and the media to understand and compare. It would also be interesting to know how much the FS, OGC and DOJ spent defending this one (39 square miles, or 150 or 700 acres, whatever..) compared to the 150 acre and 600 acre projects we’ve talked about on this blog before. We could even then generate a litigation cost per acre..

Here’s a letter to the editor by the ranger describing the project and the FS side..Good work by the FS, OGC and DOJ on the case, and the District for the EA and getting the word out.

Burning Slash Piles Now OK in Colorado; Prescribed Burns Waiting For Science

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Here’s a link and below is an excerpt.

The amended burn order acknowledges “burning remains the least expensive and most effective method” for removing slash piles to reduce the risk of wildfire, but says the fires will be allowed only when there is a minimum of 4-6 inches of snow on the ground. The order also requires neighbors of potentially affected areas, local governments and the media to be notified.

Hickenlooper said experts tell him that prescribed burns to eliminate dense forest undergrowth are crucial for mitigation, but said the science behind them must be considered before prescribed burns beyond burning slash piles is brought back.

A second executive order created the 12-member Wildland and Prescribed Fire Advisory Committee to work with the director of the Division of Fire Prevention and Control to improve wildfire preparedness, response, suppression and management of prescribed fires.

The group’s tasks include “work to ensure continued safety and protection for residents on the wildland-urban interface, while promoting the health and longevity of our state’s natural forests through properly regulated pile burnings.”

With the third order, Hickenlooper created the 17-member Task Force on Wildfire Insurance and Forest Health to review issues related to coverage — including replacement costs of destroyed homes, accounting for personal property losses, relocation assistance and timeliness of insurance benefits.

The task force is also to look for ways insurance policies could provide incentives to landowners to promote forest health and reduce fire risks.


Note from Sharon: In our effort to see beyond partisan boundaries, I am going to start drawing attention to the party and location of politicians involved in our issues. Governor Hickenlooper is mostly a Metro-Elk kind of guy but being Governor has made him more aware of Colorado’s rural areas. He is a D. I don’t know if it’s him, or the nature of Colorado, but task forces seem like ways to approach bipartisan or nonpartisan solutions. It seems to me (hypothesis) that wildfires are a larger share of state business in the Interior West than the more urban and wetter Western Seaboard states, and so we might see some interesting policy solutions come from this part of the west.

Whitebark Lawsuit II

Matthew posted this link last week about the whitebark ESA lawsuit.

Now, I asked the question “why?” and “what conditions does Mr. Garrity want changed”?

Matthew replied that I need to read the lawsuit. I don’t think that’s quite fair, as when I am supporting the FS point of view, I don’t think I’ve ever asked anyone to “read the EIS.” The fact is, if you are supporting something, I think it it incumbent on the supporter to pick out the pieces of the document that make the argument. Of course, folks litigating are not required to do public outreach to get public understanding, acceptance and support for their actions; and neither can the USG really once a topic has fallen under the litigation Cone of Silence (link here.. notice that that post was also about trying to figure out “what are the actions that you want changed?” with the very same Mr. Garrity). So I guess it falls upon us volunteers to have this kind of public discussion. I do believe that there must be a better way.

So I did not read the whole thing, because I tend to find the snarky and self-righteous vibe of the writing of many lawsuits to be sandpaper to my soul, but I did find this tidbit:

An actual controversy exists between Plaintiffs and Defendants. Plaintiffs’ staff, members, and supporters derive scientific, aesthetic, and spiritual benefits from whitebark pine’s continued existence in the wild and from the ecosystems upon which it depends. They use and enjoy lands throughout the range of whitebark pine, including regular and consistent use and enjoyment
of federal public lands in the Northern Rockies, including National Parks and National Forests in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. The majority of whitebark pine in the U.S. occurs on National Forest and National Park lands. Plaintiff Alliance for the Wild Rockies is already involved in other federal
litigation in this Court to protect whitebark pine on National Forest lands in Montana. See e.g. Alliance for the Wild Rockies v Krueger, CV-12-150- DLC (D. Mont.) (Challenging the Cabin Gulch Project on Montana’s Helena National Forest, in part for approving clearcutting of hundreds of acres of
whitebark pine habitat without first considering the best available science on whitebark pine habitat management). Plaintiffs’ staff, members, and supporters use whitebark pine habitat for hiking, fishing, hunting, camping, photographing scenery and wildlife, and engaging in other vocational, scientific, spiritual, and recreational activities. Plaintiffs’ staff, members, and supporters observe, study, and enjoy whitebark pine, and intend to continue to observe, study, and enjoy whitebark pine frequently and on an ongoing basis in the future.

Based on that, it sounds like the problem is with clearcutting for WBP. Since last week I was able to contact my scientific colleagues who work on WBP. Here is a quote:

I’m not aware of any clearcutting with WBP. We certainly don’t do it here and I haven’t heard about any in other regions. We DO cut in WBP stands, but the intent is to remove competing vegetation, mostly conifers. There’s a chance that a dead or very sick WBP may be cut in order to provide growing room for a younger, healthier tree, but clearcutting WBP makes no sense.

This made me curious about the Cabin Gulch project.
Here is what I found by searching for WBP in the ROD here:

Regeneration harvests on approximately 417 acres of which approximately 286 acres target
whitebark pine establishment. These harvests will be done where a substantial portion of the
overstory was lodgepole pine that has been killed by mountain pine beetle and the establishment
of regeneration is desired. This harvest activity will result in 2-aged, or even-aged stands
depending on how many healthy trees are available for retention, primarily Douglas-fir. In these
treatments, the existing stand is largely replaced and the resulting stand is dominated by
regeneration. Lodgepole pine, Douglas-fir, and/or whitebark pine natural regeneration is expected
depending on the unit. Diameters cut would generally range from 7 – 16” DBH and live trees of
other species would be retained to provide seed, structure and snag recruitment.

So it sounds like they are taking off dead lodgepole to give WPB regeneration a chance to grow? That sounds different than “clearcutting hundreds of acres of wpb habitat”? Is it better to let the dead lodgepoles fall? Could that result in jackstrawed lpp which would then cause fires to burn hotter and turn the WBP regen into crispy critters?

When folks talk about the “best science” it reminds me that all of us can go out to a site and look at WBP, fires, fuel loadings and treatments. We don’t need a Large Hadron collider and billions of bucks to observe this phenomenon.

The interesting thing about the WPB issue is that we all want the same thing, putatively, to protect WBP as much as is possible that would be effective under changing climate conditions. No sawmills run off WBP, and it’s often in roadless or wilderness areas, or national parks. So the rationale seems more mysterious than most lawsuits.

Matthew also said in his comment here:

Furthermore, in the section of its July 2011 decision where the USFWS lists the “high Priority Listing Actions” that will receive funding for listing in the FY 2010 or 2011 – instead of whitebark pine – the USFWS lists 39 species with Listing Priority Numbers between 3 and 12. In other words, species with LPN between 3 and 12 do not face greater threats than whitebark pine, which has a LPN of 2.

The lawsuit continues to go into lots of details about where the agency is currently spending it’s money and time and how 40% of the funding in FY 2010/11 actually went to species that have a lower priority than whitebark pine. Again, I’d encourage people to read the actual lawsuit, view all the info and then ask questions. Because having me simply re-type what’s in the lawsuit here isn’t really a homework assignment I should be doing for you. Thanks.

This part sounds to me like management of FWS and where they put their priorities and funding, and why. Again, it seems like reasonable people could disagree about any federal agency, and where it puts its priorities. I would prefer to see our federal agencies managed by folks with recommendations from a public FACA committee rather than by a few lawyers in a non-public forum, settling a lawsuit.

Winter Reflection

It is especially so, in a profession like forestry, that some of us get a chance to reflect on what has happened, and what might happen. Some of us find other ways of being outdoors and enjoying nature. My winter “data collection” involves sampling, organizing and capturing millions of scenic “data points” in a pleasing manner. Sometimes one has an entire winter to look at a problem from a new point of view than they had before. Being more moderate, I keep and cultivate an open mind, welcoming new points of view to scrutinize. Anyone who said that collaboration, consensus and compromise would be easy and painless was lying to you. Like in photography, scientific studies can use composition, depth of field and field of view to adjust what the viewer sees, and doesn’t see. A telephoto lens and a polarizing filter can dramatically affect what you want the viewer to see.

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My young nephew called and invited me to take the extra bed in his Yosemite Lodge room. I hustled to get down there and we enjoyed a nice dinner, after I made Isaac and his friend some potent “Snugglers”. The three of us skied at Badger Pass, with glorious conditions the next day. The last morning, I took them to this secret spot along the Merced River. I never fail to get great pictures at this little-known spot, and I greedily sucked up more than my share of nice shots.

www.facebook.com/LarryHarrellFotoware

Study: County-Level Income Increase Explained by Protected Lands

headwaters_mapHeadwaters Economics – a non-profit economic research group based in Bozeman, Montana that specializes in community and economic development – has created an interactive map to show the amount of per capita income explained by protected federal lands for each county in the non-metropolitan western U.S.

For example, in Gallatin County, Montana $2,655 of the per capita income (7% of total PCI) can be explained by the presence of protected public lands.  Or, in Gunnison County, Colorado, $5,203 of the per capita income (15% of total PCI) can be explained by the presence of protected public lands. Meanwhile, in Teton County, Wyoming $23,897 of the per capita income (24% of total PCI) can be explained by the presence of protected public lands.

The new interactive map and explanation take into account each county’s characteristics and shows an estimated amount of per capita income that can explained by protected federal lands for each non-metropolitan county.

This new county-specific analysis builds on earlier work (West Is Best) by Headwaters Economics that looked at the U.S. West’s 286 non-metro counties as a region, and found a meaningful relationship between the amount of protected public land and higher per capita income levels in 2010.  According to this analysis, the effect protected public lands have on per capita income can be most easily described in this way: on average, western non-metro counties have a per capita income that is $436 higher for every 10,000 acres of protected public lands within their boundaries.

Forest of the Week: Wayne National Forest

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I was trying for District of the Week but was stymied by plucking out one district from this SOPA. So I thought I’d link to the entire Forest’s Sopa.

What I thought was interesting about this SOPA was that there were many uses of CEs, but apparently no tree related vegetation projects.

Which is interesting when the various Post-Earth Island discussions of CEs occur, and the old “CE’s are only for mowing the office lawn” discourse.

Leasing of hayfields, mineral activities and recreation seem to be the major projects.