Goose Project Update- No New Roads

Matthew raised this question in a comment here..
I brought up the question of “how can it be potential wilderness if we can see roads everywhere?”

He said “why do you need more roads there, if you already have many roads?” Which I thought was worth asking..

So I asked the District…

Here is the answer:

The miles of road are for reconstruction (possibly replacing culverts, washouts, etc) and maintenance. There was only 1 mile of proposed new road and that was dropped after the decision and those stands were made into helicopter units. So, its just work on existing roads.

I don’t know about western Oregon, but in our country using helicopters instead of temporary roads would be considered “listening to people’s concerns.”

6 thoughts on “Goose Project Update- No New Roads”

  1. The Goose DN had 1 mile of new permanent road, plus 8 miles of new “temporary” roads. Use of the word “temporary,” when applied to roads, is a bit of a misnomer, because the log hauling may be temporary but the environmental effects are long lasting.

    Construction of a temporary road requires a linear clearcut, removal of all vegetation, severe soil damage, and if the road is “closed” or “decommissioned” it might mean a mere gate or possibly soil ripping, but the effects on soil and vegetation are long-lasting, and the temp road can be reopened for future logging entry, or it can become a vector for unauthorized use by OHVs, etc. Temp roads are also sometimes worse than permanent roads because they are not as well engineered.

    One of the proposed roads went through old growth forest (“RA 32” high-quality spotted owl nesting habitat) to the edge of Lookout Mtn PWA (potential wilderness area). However this road is really INSIDE the de facto roadless area because there is no road separating the affected area from the nearest road.

    • Tree, my point was that they have changed it since the decision notice so there are no new roads..

      I think most of us on this blog are familiar with temporary roads..

      Could you restate your last sentence differently, maybe it would take another sentence for me to understand. and what is a “de facto” roadless area? Is the Lookout Mountain PWA an Inventoried Roadless Area?

      • Tree is correct about the Goose Decision Notice, as that’s where we all got our information and what prompted my comment, which apparently Sharon highlighted in the intro to this post.

        And, Sharon, while most of us on this blog are familiar with temporary roads, you made a comment previously that shows me that you are not familiar with potential impacts of temporary roads.

        You’re comment was: “Temp roads do have temporary impacts (until they’re closed up).”

        I seriously doubt the ecological impacts of cutting down trees and bulldozing a (temp) road just evaporate the day the USFS decides to close the temp road.

        Also, speaking of roads, this logging project would require the use of 7,000 log truck loads to haul out all the trees they will be cutting down.

        Sharon previously made a comment, “I don’t see what impacts log trucks have when they’re on the highway.”

        As I also previously wrote at the highlighted comment, “I believe that driving 7,200 logging trucks up and down forest roads (over how many culverts and stream crossings?) does have a significant impact. I seriously doubt the 7,200 logging trucks are exclusively using federal and state highways, as you seem to infer.”

        • Matthew, 1) you are right in that I didn’t go into all the details of physical and potential impacts of temporary roads…but I do have some idea of what they are from having read many drafts of many environmental documents and discussing them with many groups.. and seeing them in different places at different stages, so that was a shorthand.

          There are impacts from temp roads. But when they are closed vegetation grows back. As Larry says, in some cases where trees are spread out to start with you might not take out many trees. Once vehicles stop going on them and they are put to bed they are on a trajectory to going back the way they were. Unless you are saying that short plants as opposed to tall plants, are a continuing environmental impact..??

          2. The district is fixing up the roads and culverts so they are ready for use by log trucks and they are designed to protect streams. I know the log trucks will be using forest roads, but my looking at the map shows you can’t go that far without getting to the highway.
          After the roads are fixed up and maintained, maybe they will have fewer impacts from their regular use.

          Again, my main point was simply.. “the District was characterized as “not listening to people”. Getting rid of temp roads strikes me as “listening to people.”

        • Permanent roads should always be better off after a project is completed. Road compaction is a good thing, and money is taken out of each load for road maintenance. Roads are watered during the haul, to keep the fine material bonded to the roadbed. More information regarding temp roads; It really depends on the terrain and geology of an area to determine if, and where a temp road should be installed. In this case, I would assume that since they switched to helicopter, the roads were used to access cable logging locations (and steep ground). Sometimes those kinds of roads follow ridgetops, and sometimes they don’t. Remember, there are also impacts to helicopter logging, too. Finding a large enough area to build a safe landing can be difficult. Large logs take up lots of space, and an entire acre isn’t out of the question for one busy landing.

    • When temp roads are laid out, we don’t put them where trees already live. It is a lot easier to install when you don’t have to remove stumps. So, “linear clearcut” sounds like rhetoric to me. Temp roads require removal, by definition. Generally, when you use a temp road, there won’t be anything worth going after in the immediate future. If you’ll need it later, it isn’t a “temporary road”. Usually, we try very hard to keep roads to a minimum, as they are sometimes a deal breaker for litigation. In this case, I am sure that some of those temporary roads are linked to the new road construction, too. It is difficult to be specific about where a temp road needs to be to connect the main road with the cable logging settings. Fretting about roadless “purity” is silly, as old roads definitely sit inside Roadless Areas. Few citizens know the difference between “roadless” and “unroaded”, in the legal sense.


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